NOOB Questions
I didn't know how to title this as it is probably an elementary thing for you musicians, but for me it remains an enigma. Hopefully someone here can explain this more clearly so I grasp the basics at least.
As you who have seen my posts know, I have no musical background, but write poetry. My goal by joining this forum besides meeting some new people interested in the same things is to actually learn something about music, well actually composing lyrics.
A long time friend of mine is very knowledgeable in music and was at a pro level back in his late teens and early 20's so at first I thought I'd have an easy go at this, however his method of relaying information is less than suitable. (basically he talks to me as if I have the same understanding as he does) It takes hours for him to convey a single point.
I am hoping for a little clarification on the terms from theory so I can better grasp the creation of lyrics as well as I grasp the creation of poetry.
In my eyes, lyrics are poems formatted differently and poem are lyrics improperly formatted for music. Should I view these this way or should I compartmentalize them into their own worlds?
With poetry, meter is the flow of the poem's sound. In many of my poems, the lines themselves are of equal syllable counts and share the same metrical sounding flow. This provides an easy to read and follow piece while speaking aloud or reading silently.
In lyrics the meter is not the flow of sound but refers to the rhythmic structure and pattern of accented and unaccented beats within a musical composition. It determines the basic time signature and pulse of the music.
I remember music class telling us about time signatures as 4/4 or 3/4 which was the number of notes inside a Bar. This still does not explain meter to me clearly enough. Although it is the number of note inside the bar, it does not explain how it fits into lyrics for me.
If I have 3 quarter notes inside a bar, that obviously is 3/4 time signature for the musical piece, but how does it affect the lyrics in both structure and flow?
Is there a specific number of bars used for lyrics per line of a song? (is the a specific number of bars per line that is standardized for music and lyrical composition?}
I'll stop here before I end up asking for the entire course of music theory but I hope you understand how I am struggling to cross the boundaries between poetry and lyrics.
Thanks!
Comments
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As I explained to Sid a while back, I tend to do this kind of thing instinctively when I write my songs, which doesn't help you at all!! I wouldn't get too hung up about adhering to any specific formulas, but that's just me. If you're just writing lyrics then I don't see that you really need to worry about music theory. So said, others are far more analytical than me when they write.
RDM is much better than me at explaining this kind of thing (sorry Owen!!). Maybe he'll come in here and offer some help.😀
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No it isn't very helpful but yet it is. It shows that my assumption of lyrical composition is not correct. If you do not place much emphasis on it and you create, then there must be something to that formula.
I write spontaneously, then revise repeat until I feel its done. While my poems feel solid, to me they do not feel musically solid. Is this because I do not 'hear' a melody in my head while writing it? Is it because I am not trained in music practice?
Do I now, continue my writing poetically but attempt to conform to some form of lyrical formatting or try to write directly into lyrics?
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By now you will have realised that songwriting is more complex than it first appears.
What you probably dont realise is that you have a skill set that many on this forum would benefit from you sharing.
Songwriting is not as hard as it appears. Back in February of this year, I'd never written one word of lyric. Four weeks later, I came second in a songwriting competition on another forum! You know a lot more than I did when I started.
Stop focusing on what you can't do, take one of your poems, use a standard song structure, fit it into that as best you can. Get a free account with Suno Ai, paste your lyrics in, use someone else's prompt for the genre you're using and post what comes out. You'll be writing cracking songs in no time, trust me.
Sid
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@sidshovel Well, you unleashed Pandora upon her box. You just welded the missing link between my words, vocals and music in place. Not sure if I should thank you or not.
Suno actually created a few good songs from my lyrics that seemed to be about what I envisioned them as. I admit I am impressed with its outcome and afraid of it's ease of usability. Not impressed with it's inability to discern the proper genre/style of music but the vocals were clear and seemed to maintain a decent level and the music was decent as well.
I took your advice from a thread where you spoke about using two accounts for Suno and got my 100 credits. This tactic provides results is great. Huge thanks!
As far as my skillset, I don't see it as a skill and have not had my poetry received well by the literary communities I used to frequent. Writing is something I've always done and it truly can be attributed to Dr. Seuss and the great poets such as T.S Elliot, Emily Dickenson, Robert Frost et-al. As a member here, I would be honored for anyone to create something from my lyrics.0 -
I have no formal training in either music, poetry or lyrics - so many large grains of salt - but I'll try to tell you how it feels to me.
Poetry and lyrics are related but not the same. Things that work well in one format don't always translate across. Repetition is more likely to work in a song than a poem for example- yes I'm sure several counter examples spring to mind - but generally speaking.
A poem with a rhyming scheme is more likely to stick tightly to that format, whilst a lyric might be looser but still sound fine when heard.
How words sound and are sung affects lyrics. Having short, clipped sounds at the end of a line prevents the singer from lingering on a note there, but that generally isn't an issue in a poem.
In a song you have a choice about where to let the music drive the song forward, and where the lyric should be front and center. Most obviously in a musical solo, but things like mood can be driven more by music, and licks and riffs throughout the song. The lyric can be dense with meaning or sparser letting the music do the work.
But I think you've already identified the key factor and that is timing / prosody. A lyric needs to fit against a groove. If I read a lyric and fall into a pattern reading it, then there's a strong chance I could set that to music. If I am writing a lyric first I will try to do the same. And obviously if the music comes first, then I write to that groove. If they don't match and something needs to change, for me it will be the lyric.
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not just a pretty face!
very instructive,
Thank you
Sid
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@RainyDayMan without the formal training, I'd be your grasp is as solid as a formally trained person, just with different perspectives and knowledge. It all makes makes sense in a way and the new terminology is my homework lol
The second paragraph makes perfect sense to me and the rest seems straight forward.
When I write I attempt to create a cadence with the words using what's called meter and metrical feet. For simplicity but not actuality let's translate this into syllables per line. If there is seven in one line and twelve in the next, rhyme or not it usually doesn't work well except in freeform poetry.
SS pointed out about the stanza 3 in one of my songs was longer than the others, which makes me see it is similar in lyrics.
Ending in a hard consonant is something you enlightened me on and I will watch for that when creating and though I do not dare sing a single note, I understand the why's behind it.
So far it is a fun journey and I am glad to have found this watering hole. I appreciate your input into my lyrical learning and hope to be able to share something useful with you all as well.
Time to look up prosody!
Thanks again!0
Howdy, Stranger!